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BATOOH
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Single Turbo upgrade or folly? Some memories.

Mon 23 Mar, 2020 3:03 am

Just quit posting here and saw a post from some americans burning everything inside their engine bays with their Single turb setups. I have very fond memories of Dad and I testing the 3.4litre S type Jag on Waterholes road, Christchurch, at 100mph after he had upgraded the ignition system to Capacitive Discharge Ignition (CDI). It was fantastic doing 100 on that road with it's long wavy humps. That is until the car just died. Oh well old man had to return to the old ignition system at the side of the road. he had mounted the jaycar style alloy project box containing the CDI adjacent to the beautiful big black ceramic exhaust headers, and you guessed it, it got too hot!.
 
magn1t
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Re: Single Turbo upgrade or folly? Some memories.

Tue 21 Jul, 2020 11:47 pm

Just come across this one........it's always a downgrade of course.
But anyway it's a good demonstration of how heat shielding is essential. 
Most kids wouldn't even figure out that when you're at full noise your exhaust manifolds glow red.Everything up to and including the turbo. The turbine drops both temp and pressure.
Heat shielding, there's at least 3 ways to do it. 
The factory way is always best and that is always sheet metal. Sheet metal blocks radiated heat, lets hot air out and doesn't cause the hot bits to be excessively hot and then fail.
Then there's heat wrap, horrible stuff, It keeps the heat in.
Then there's ceramic coatings too. just as bad if not worse. 

The real answer to doing a single turbo conversion and not burning up.........can you firstly make then secondly fit sheet metal heat shields? Not really enough room?


But not only that, you're probably going to make your own manifolds, I've been there done that before I had a GTO. Made several. They get hot and expand when you use the wrong materials. Then they cool and shrink. The flange that bolts to the engine, that stays at about a constant temp compared to the pipes. With expansion and contraction with all the heat cycles, it changes the angles between the pipes but also puts lots of stresses in different places depending on actual pipe lengths.When they get hot and expand they also get soft, so once everything is at max temp it'll de stress 'cos it's soft but then when it cools and shrinks, the pipes pull back together, often the pipes look like they've been trying to pull out of the flanges, the flanges then warp and leak then there's a lack of boost.
Then you've got to pull it all apart, if you had heat wrap on it, well it's that much hotter in there , it fails that much sooner, take the wrap off, fix it, put it back together........repeat, repeat, repeat.
Ceramic coating is always worse 'cos it won't weld, how do you grind in those tight spots?

That's why I won't use anything other than factory cast manifolds with adaptors, but there's still the V engine problem where you need to allow for expansion between the banks.

I've still got all my factory heat shields in place. If you remove the front one ......the alternator WILL fail. 
Like kids with evos, they get custom manifolds, no heat shielding and can't figure out why the cam sensor just failed?

The worst I've had on my Z was with exhaust gaskets continually blowing out, again it's cos the flanges warp, where it's loose, it blows out. The square flange at the turbo inlet, it started leaking but leaked upwards right on to the bonnet , blistered the fresh paint.
Prior planning prevents piss poor performance.
 
BATOOH
Topic Author
Posts: 1004
Joined: Fri 01 Apr, 2011 8:23 pm

Re: Single Turbo upgrade or folly? Some memories.

Mon 10 Aug, 2020 6:26 pm

magn1t wrote:
Just come across this one........it's always a downgrade of course.
But anyway it's a good demonstration of how heat shielding is essential. 

Heat shielding, there's at least 3 ways to do it. 
The factory way is always best and that is always sheet metal. Sheet metal blocks radiated heat, lets hot air out and doesn't cause the hot bits to be excessively hot and then fail.
Then there's heat wrap, horrible stuff, It keeps the heat in.
Then there's ceramic coatings too. just as bad if not worse. 

The real answer to doing a single turbo conversion and not burning up.........can you firstly make then secondly fit sheet metal heat shields? Not really enough room?


But not only that, you're probably going to make your own manifolds, I've been there done that before I had a GTO. Made several. They get hot and expand when you use the wrong materials. Then they cool and shrink. The flange that bolts to the engine, that stays at about a constant temp compared to the pipes. With expansion and contraction with all the heat cycles, it changes the angles between the pipes but also puts lots of stresses in different places depending on actual pipe lengths.When they get hot and expand they also get soft, so once everything is at max temp it'll de stress 'cos it's soft but then when it cools and shrinks, the pipes pull back together, often the pipes look like they've been trying to pull out of the flanges, the flanges then warp and leak then there's a lack of boost.

That's why I won't use anything other than factory cast manifolds with adaptors, but there's still the V engine problem where you need to allow for expansion between the banks.

I've still got all my factory heat shields in place. 

Keep ya eyes peeled on FB as there is a couple of Singles stepping up to the plate soon. will be interesting on heat radiation results.
Yeap agree on factory heat shields. They seem to be laminated two sheets with some sort of sh** in the middle of them they are dull to the .... when you tap them. Was out at Ruapuna in the weekend and a lad and his dad had altered a MX5 with a turbo and they had used solid heat shielding, made a nice job of it all and have 205 whp to show for their efforts. I will have to be on my game next year when this youngster lets loose at the street sprints.
Make my own mani's- no way not on your Nells. I'm going to use home made adaptors that will bolt onto the three bolt TD04 OEM side and the TD05H's will bolt to those adaptors. there will be plenty of room around the holes for expansion/contraction but essentially they will just be a piece of nicely shaped metal - spacers bolted each way. I keep hearing you did this on yours but can't find the post Magnit?
If I can I will reuse the factory heatshields or alter and expand them. Can't wait to do it but got other things to do just now.
 
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box
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Re: Single Turbo upgrade or folly? Some memories.

Mon 10 Aug, 2020 7:07 pm

ACL do sheets of heat shielding, it was made of two bits stuck together with stuff in the middle.

Actually, I found it. It's this stuff:
https://www.speedscience.co.nz/products/acl-mouldable-heat-shield-material
Expensive sh** but it worked well when I had my single turbo, very easy to work with too. I found the easiest thing wasn't to put heat shielding on the piping but to put shielding on everything else. I.e I had a massive shield over the transmission, a massive shield on the firewall (after the factory black fluff caught on fire) and a shield that went along the back of the engine, protecting the coils, CAS, wiring and fuel lines. I had heat wrapped piping and vents in the bonnet.

Throughout the ordeal, I cooked a pair of shifter cables, the firewall fluff, a CAS, the original rubber fuel return line (lucky it didn't burn down), an aftermarket braided fuel feed line (lucky again) and an upper radiator hose that I had wrapped (ended up making a stainless one). Once I had the heat shielding sorted out it was OK, I think I even did half a track day......in hindsight it was all a bad idea and a waste of money. The way Kris Larsen has done it with the turbo behind the radiator is the way to go, promising results so far. 

Sort of related, but didn't an over the transmission single turbo 3000GT burn to the ground in the states recently?
Image
 
BATOOH
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Re: Single Turbo upgrade or folly? Some memories.

Mon 10 Aug, 2020 8:20 pm

Ah! Thats exactly the stuff that I saw in that MX5 in the weekend. thats saved me some time in the future. Cheers.
Nah haven't seen anything stateside about a burning 3000gt.
Um while I'm at it I need a braided clutch hose with 10mm x 1mm male one end and banjo the other about 330mm long. been trying to find something for ages but either too costly or just not commonly available. any ideas. I got a braided brake line hooked to the banjo and a small piece of solid line with males on each end. It's a PITA to work with.
 
magn1t
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Joined: Mon 04 Feb, 2008 1:15 pm
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Re: Single Turbo upgrade or folly? Some memories.

Mon 10 Aug, 2020 10:36 pm

I just saw on FB how someone's home built manifold has crumbled. looks like it had heat wrap on from the state of the outside of it. 

Yes I had plenty of pics up of adaptors, were on my build thread , they've gone but I can find them again.

Image


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I made a bit of a mistake by starting with a pair of genuine 14Bs with the usual cracked housings, used them to make everything but then changed to chingchong 20Gs . I had to redo it as the bolt orientation from the in side and the out side, it was different.
One of the bolts holding on the read cam cover, I can't get it out, the turbo is in the way. There's oil leaks filling up the rear sparkplug wells, extra insulation? There's coils over the plugs too and an aluminium sheet between them and the rear turbo.I can get the plugs and coils out without removing the intake manifold too.
 It's all fully heatshielded, the oil pipe there being important.
All I've managed to destroy since then is all the tyres and still haven't got new ones. That was close to 10 years ago.
Prior planning prevents piss poor performance.
 
BATOOH
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Re: Single Turbo upgrade or folly? Some memories.

Tue 11 Aug, 2020 7:03 am

Thanks Steve. I was going to try and make the adaptors like those ones that got made in the states. a simple chunk of 3/4 inch thick plate sculpted to adapt to 3 bolt and 4 bolt other side. If I could easily drag up a pic I would but because of this new PC can't. 

Twin Throttles Huh wow you're keen!.
 
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box
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Re: Single Turbo upgrade or folly? Some memories.

Tue 11 Aug, 2020 8:47 pm

BATOOH wrote:
Um while I'm at it I need a braided clutch hose with 10mm x 1mm male one end and banjo the other about 330mm long. been trying to find something for ages but either too costly or just not commonly available. any ideas. I got a braided brake line hooked to the banjo and a small piece of solid line with males on each end. It's a PITA to work with.

I've done the same thing. What makes it a pain in the a**?
Image
 
magn1t
Posts: 2976
Joined: Mon 04 Feb, 2008 1:15 pm
Location: Upsetting the ricers on youtube 1magnit

Re: Single Turbo upgrade or folly? Some memories.

Tue 11 Aug, 2020 10:53 pm

BATOOH wrote:
Thanks Steve. I was going to try and make the adaptors like those ones that got made in the states. a simple chunk of 3/4 inch thick plate sculpted to adapt to 3 bolt and 4 bolt other side. If I could easily drag up a pic I would but because of this new PC can't. 


That was my original intention too but with the mivec heads and even without them, there's not a lot of space and sure you can get a 14B to fit but maybe not a 16G and very unlikely a 20G so again, got to make allowances for later upgrades otherwise it's just a case of do it all again only a bit different.

There's my heat shielding if you look carefully, both front and rear with some turbo intake pipes missing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b4l-4j2G8Q


The front turbo has to squeeze between the original manifold and the front engine mount as well as the radiator fan. You've got to be able to fit the radiator, don't really need the fan?
The rear turbo, you don't want it to hit the firewall when you launch it with the engine mounts slopping around. There's not a lot of space even with a TDO4? got to be able to fit the heat shielding?
So some of the problems with a single upgrade are the same as with a twin upgrade.
Prior planning prevents piss poor performance.
 
BATOOH
Topic Author
Posts: 1004
Joined: Fri 01 Apr, 2011 8:23 pm

Re: Single Turbo upgrade or folly? Some memories.

Wed 12 Aug, 2020 11:32 am

box wrote:
BATOOH wrote:
Um while I'm at it I need a braided clutch hose with 10mm x 1mm male one end and banjo the other about 330mm long. been trying to find something for ages but either too costly or just not commonly available. any ideas. I got a braided brake line hooked to the banjo and a small piece of solid line with males on each end. It's a PITA to work with.

I've done the same thing. What makes it a pain in the a**?

Because I find working on Vac hoses/Brake Line Tees and rear turbo intake all of which I have been working on lately is a pain cause the solid part of the clutch line restricts access to this general area. I run the vac lines and and many other lines through the old heater hose holes. Actually thats a little work on I have at the moment, after removing all the redundant brackets for heater/aircon and all the other items on the inside of the firewall I find the car stinks as you're racing it. So I have to plug all the holes- I use aluminium tape to do that with, normally. But what do racing cars use where all the vac lines etc go through a grommeted hole.? Reason I'm a bit concerned about it is 1) had a bypass heater hose blow off one day down the road here whilst testing and the car filled with vapour- christ I thought I was about to be engulfed in explosion and 2) I have actually caught this thing on fire- fortunately nowhere near too much important stuff. I got oil press line/water temp line/usual boost gauge/EBC CONTROL/MAP SENSOR/AIT sensor/2 x gauges for front and rear turbo boost (more just to see they are both working in unison)/input to brake prop valve and return line/ and more going through this area so getting congested. Haven't opened up the aircon hole on the other side of the firewall yet- hoping not too. If I get a flexible clutch hose it will be able to drop down under all this stuff.

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