.

When you get your race car going pretty well you compare it to your competition. It's called a logical test! Then you race it and see how illogical it all is!

Ok next little perf upgrade for me is probably going to be a set of TD04HL 9 blade turbine wheels from CHINA. Thats where my 12 blade turbines come from! It will be interesting to see how much journal wear etc the 12 blades have when I replace them! Why not use MHI? Where do you go to buy quality sh** at a kings ransom??? That is a serious question I would like answered!

The 9 blades should just drop in. Then I need to work on getting the max power from the 15g's which should be around 500awhp. 

At that stage it will be interesting to see how competitive my car (and I) really are. Ok there are a few 700awhp monsters lurking out there, but even now they don't win everything. There are some risks!! 1. me. 2. Nick in the bore of no.4. 3.old engine. 4.The great Unknowns!!. etc.

Where too from there?? Hmmmm 4 BOLT block I suppose and new rods pistons etc. Reuse the TT gen 1 heads.19t's may be a bit small so an unknown turbo choice may be waiting. then a clutch etc. etc . etc. sounds like alot of $$$$$. Ok power to weight ratio increases! Costly though. And do those 4 bolt sump pans allow the same baffle results the 2 bolt pans provide??? I would rather reduce the weight! And put some real good sh** rubber on her (255/65 with 35 profile rather than 235/45 profile) and maybe get some real coilovers that have adjustable compression AND rebound damping. Lightweight panelwork? Thats sounds delicious really. I think I'm leaning to lighter weight rather than messing with insane HP!! It will be interesting for me to read back on this in 5 years. I will be 65 then and you would think I will have more sense!

If you're going to go changing turbos , why not go to TDO5s?
TDO4s are such a waste of time and effort, too restrictive in the hot side and therefore you'll never get much benefit from better cams or other mods.
But then again, you're not limited to TDO5s either, you can go to a T3 hot side.......go look at turbos that work well as upgrades on 1.6 to 1.8 litre 4 bangers.
It's all easy with adaptors.....forget about custom manifolds, they all crack or warp then leak then you're 1 step forwards and 2 steps back.

There's plenty of good cheap china turbos out there.

I don't think anyone has ever got 500 hp out of TDO4s unless they run it on race fuel ,  E85 is race fuel but it's impractical in this country.

You're right about custom manifolds, just asking for pain. I always liked Fastbikes approach to turbo's - just rinse them!!!! I hate changing things that require aero fittings and the like. they are god damn expensive for what they are and like with an uprated oil cooler the fittings and the special pipe costs more than the oil cooler itself! Thats what would happen if I went T3/td05. Although I have had to chop some length off a couple of coolant pipes on the stock TD04's, no pipe ridge to put the pipe clip behind, all that holds it is the clip etc. Hasn't blown any off yet and by god a few years ago I had her cooking. so Water pipes would be no cost and just have to reconfigure the oil pipes. Got Box's old sump on there with the welded on AN fittings so that will make the oil returns easier I guess. Upgrading to TD05's ain't off the cards yet. Probably do the 9 blade turbines cause thats easy, just need a re balance. etc. Who knows. I've got a good spare set of 9b's there and this 15g set. I won't need the 9b's one day so at least I can sell those to offset costs on an upgrade. Or sell the 15g's. Time will tell.

Jap cars should never have AN fittings on them....they're imperial. Metric only is what's required.............................OK so what's the big hate for mixing imperial with metric?.....Planes fall out of the sky (Air canada) when they refuel in lbs when it should be Kgs...you only get half ..ish....you just don't do it, because....you just don't.

All the necessary  fittings are easily found at pick a part.
The TDO4 and TDO5 turbos (in fact ALL turbos) they don't actually NEED the water fittings.
They're for factory warranty purposes only to prevent the bearings overheating and the oil coking when you shut it off.The only way that's ever going to happen is if you use the wrong (or dirty) oil and come straight off the racetrack and shut it off without idling down for the 30 sec or so it takes you to get to the pits.
That's one reason why turbo timers are such a joke.
Plenty of bigger aftermarket turbos never had, never will have water fittings


Edit.

If you ever get bored and want to think up on some new but cheap effective mods for the car, 3Si is often a good source.Taking notice that general concensus will cause brain damage but the topics with the most no of posts are often the more informative and worthwhile.
Like here.
Even I get a mention somewhere???????
https://www.3si.org/forum/f1/ebay-19ts- ... cs-542667/
Kids come along, think they know everything.....then a few years down the track...go look again and re read.


But anyway, it's ON topic as in BIG TDO4s.......haters

But what's even funnier...there's all these stupid people with what seems like shitloads of money who think that all it takes to run a 10 is to throw lots of money at it and it'll just happen??

First hit out after the recent maintenance bout. Brakes work but not as well as they used to. Still getting used to that! Weeping from top cap on M/C. It's never done that, now did I change the cap because the old one was too hard to clean up??? New pads in the rear. some brake shudder yesterday toward the end of the day at high speed when hot. when cold and low speed no shudder. Have to check the wheel balance etc as had to change a wheel cause of the flatspot I put on an NT01 about 3 years ago. so that's it for that tyre. it's a goner. The first tyre I have used on my race car!.

EBC Off and new wastegates held boost at 15psi. I guess that's one bar. a bar is 14.7 isn't it or am I crook with stoichiometric? So that confirmed it was time to battle the EBC. well that went like a charm really, first time for me. dial it into 18 psi easily and even got an improvement in boost response by adjusting gain from 15 to 18. It wasn't launching out of corners like I thought it should. Lap time was pitiful at 1 min 43. God I admit that EBC is a black art. even the instructions are wrong. I've got some pipe ducting arriving from somewhere in the world to swap out the OEM Turbo intake setup incl MAF. soon it will have separate turbo intakes into 75mm duct and into 75mm poddy's at the front Right of the FMIC. That OEM intake ducting looks a wee bit restrictive when you look past the connection at the turbo end. I would say it was only about 40 - 45mm diameter.

No leaks. finally cured that bastad of a leak at the thermostat end. Didn't use any water all day. didn't overheat, held steady at 190. Boost nice and stable at 18.5. Car drives well, safe as a church when rounding corners. was able to push it so far (to the detriment of lap times) around corners it was starting to crab and grind the tyres. Thank god i'm not into Time Attack.

Got a standing quarter in October and a hill climb it will be good to compare previous times in both those events. 
Mental note to oneself. 20% off those kinugawa TDO4HL 9 blades and free shipping. It's now or never. I could easily get them in and redyno all in one hit before next years street sprint...

I think you'll be disappointed with anything else TD04 based to be honest. Local cars on local fuel don't respond that well to anything other than changing to something with a bigger turbine housing (small TD05, Garret GT28/GT30). How big you go is up to you, atleast if you go to Garret flanges it leaves you open to upgrades/downgrades until you figure out what works for you. The Chinese turbos are cheap and do the job.  

Thanks mate. This is good advice... as I'm not getting any younger.  I've had a look at a few TD05H 16G'S. I've got some Q's.
The big 16g or the little 16g. I read a post that the guy said the little 16g was better cause it spooled quicker. maybe an issue on our 2 x 1.5litre cars.
I would guess the manifold flange would need an adaptor from the 3 bolt to a 4. Can you make these out of 12mm plate? Have you had a go?
The 4 bolt Turbine output end would need to be adapted to the droppers on the GTO. can you get an adaptor or substitute the droppers for a TD05 style or is this going to be an exhaust shop job?
I assume you can buy adaptors for the compressor outlet 2 bolt flanged face. then just clamp the silicon onto that adaptor?
Are the water fittings the same diameter, I would just cut mine down to act as hosetail without the ribbed end to hold the water hose onto it and use 2 x pipe clamps and hope they don't ever blow off. I have done that to my rear turbo a few years ago cause the coolant pipe was corroded and  leaking. it has never blown off even after some serious water temps on it about 4 years ago.

After many years of thinking I had the air feeding easily unrestricted into each turbo using the OEM intake hoses I was annoyed to find that just inside the connection between the comp housing and the hose there is almost like a 42mm restrictor. When I fitted the OLD 15g comp housings I had just removed the rubberised adaptor rings on those hoses that allowed them to fit onto the smaller 15G comp inlets. Another limitation overcome. I suppose I can sell the 9b's and the 15g's eventually to fund the 05'S. Recently Denis Beck in the USA reamed one of his DR750's out as the shaft wore out the bearing and allowed sideplay. it was more likely the thrust wore the plate out and the superback wheel karked itself (as detailed by mellett), so the TD04HL-20T is limited if boosting at it's max. A few guys over there commented that's why they had gone 05 as they knew this. More reason to avoid TD04.

I never fitted TD05s in the end, I only got as far as tacking up some adapters and downpipes and that was probably 8 or 9 years ago.

As for your questions:
-Small 16g
-Have a look at Steves build to see how to adapt factory manifolds to work with TD05s
-Make new downpipes
-Make your own compressor outlet adapters so they point the right way
-Pretty sure the water and oil fittings are the same size, the turbos are going to be in pretty different locations to stock so you'll have to do a bit of cutting and bending to get it all to line up again. Maybe look into braided lines? I love my ones, they're so easy to work with and they've lasted years without any issues. Braided drain lines are rubbish, I'd use AN barb fittings and fit heat wrapped rubber hose (and heat wrap/heat shield the downpipes)

Thanks Box.  Thats a good start for me. So Steve how do you make these...

Your pics don't work for me. Can you load into " iforce" ?


But disregarding the lack of pics, you've got to start off with a pair of turbos....the ones you're going to use.
Need a pair of 3 bolt flanges to fit the manifolds and a pair of 4 bolt flanges to fit the turbos,then got to join the 2 together with pipe,  plenty of flanges on TM but you won't find the 3 bolt ones. I've got some I cut off the front ex mani, best to use a pair of rear manifolds for the job, gives more wiggle room on the front turbo.
That's the starting point. Also need a spare engine to cobble it all together on.
That's just the manifold to hot side adaptor.
Then you've got to think about the hot side outlet to the exhaust pipe. 
For that you really need a pair of TDO4s bolted up to the engine, all stock, the original outlets all the way to the downpipe with 2 into 1 all the way back to the transfer case. That part all has to stay in place without moving (if it moves then something won't fit like the driveshaft to the back hitting the zorst pipe), Then you just remove one TDO4, fit the adaptor and new turbo, make the outlet pipe to bridge the gap. Re use the flange off the TDO4 outlet (to downpipe), use a new flange to fit the outlet of the new turbo.then repeat with the other turbo.
Then you move on to the cold side outlet, cold side inlet, oil feed and oil drain.
I'll be doing more myself soon, was looking at some cheap T3/ T4s on TM, internal WGs make it easier and cheaper.

https://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listin ... 2358990429

Can't really go wrong at the price?
For that price why would anyone waste time and effort messing with sooby turbos to fit like stock.

his pics work for me, unsure what wrong at your end

here it is anyway

It must be my old computer or my XP windows?
At least the pics are visible now.

Those flanges look a bit tricky to make and they're never going to fit right anyway.
There's not a lot of wiggle room for the front turbo and only a bit more for the back one.

For the adaptors to be efficient there's got to be a gentle taper from the small hole to the big hole, same goes for every transition in diameter.

Unfortunately nothings happened. Did the Little River hillclimb on Sunday got beaten by a woman!. Also got beaten by most of the field!. Bettered my previous times of 2'25" (2015) and 2'18" (2016) with a 2'12" (2'11.88"). Problems were... no brakes, severe reflection in the car from the piping and instrument cluster in the windscreen, car felt a bit jittery/small steering wheel made it's presence known, and I'm a complete and utter pussy in the top section where the drop off to the right is life threatening!. Results on Ratec- Results tab -Hillclimbs tab- Little river tab. I can change everything except the pussy bit and that will never change. I don't need to win this particular event and never will. But I love it, it's a great test. Used no water in the car.
Anyway turbo's. I've made some decisions. I am not going to persist with TD04's. I want to go TD05's with the 7cm exhaust side. I don't want to run T3's as they are not water cooled. when you race these cars, and I would say any car, things get bloody hot. I am having trouble locating TD05H-16G Small. Everything is Large the small has the 48/60 Compressor wheel. The chinese sure want to do deals I've found they keep emailing me. By using TD05's I will have plenty of headroom power wise and the car would appeal to a future purchaser because it's developed fully and hopefully proven. Yes there will be an end one day. 
The winner at little river was a young man in his 20's driving a family rocket ship- a 370z 4WD/720HP, Sequential,18 PSI weighing 1400KG. His father whom I get along well with and have benefited from his advice previously told me to exact the most power from the existing turbo's and not to upgrade (based on my age). Thats the first time I will not heed his advice. I think I am 5-6 seconds slower on the street sprint course than the 370z and I know within myself that I have that time in me if my car is right. Another 64 year old told me he has felt the effects of age on his racing. I heed his advice even though 1. I am a pussy and 2. I am slow. But it is my belief that it's the car not me, and my erosion of times by considerable margins over the period 2015 to date prove that. 
I was going to do Hawkswood bent sprint but no point until brakes are reworked. I will do the standing qtr on 7th dec. that should prove the car is doin OK. I will hopefully have TD05's in the car by May next year and at least 500hp would be appropriate at that time. And at that time this newly anointed 60 year old will go and kick some a**.

My read on the situation is that the original EVO 0 (14B) and Evo 1&2 (16g - small) met their demise in the 90's and early Noughties because subsequent EVO's came out with same 4g63t but used bigger Compressor wheels (16g- Large). So everybody upgraded. And it appears the entire turbo manufacturing - "world" just saw no value in producing 16g small turbo's. Thats why I can't find a pair of them. Ok yes there is a Kinugawa OEM variant around but I think it's a thousand USD so thats Just dumb money. So I'm stuck with no traction here. I need to find a 7cm turbo with internal Gate and wheel specs similar to the 16g small. I am considering purchasing two 16g large from China and downgrading them ( either with or without replacing the CHRA. You know how the lip on the CHRA fits closely to the major diameter of the Comp wheel. I wonder what would happen if I just change the comp wheel and cover to the "small" and ignored the 4mm or so differential of that Lip. Have to ask Turbocare or similar. anybody else got any suggestions? I'm not going T3 or Single though. Oh and another reason the Small 16g got surpassed was cause it used to crack the Turbine housing between gate and exducer...

I thought it was only the 14b that used to crack like that? You can still get MHI small 16g's through Turbo Care, I've got one sitting here in fact. Off the top of my head it was around the $1400 mark. 

Look into the Garrett turbos again, specifically the GT2860 with the small exhaust housing. Something like this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/GT25-GT28-GT2871-GT2860-Upgrade-T25-T28-Water-Oil-Cooled-42-Universal-Turbo/291290786061?hash=item43d248a90d:g:8CUAAOSwYmZXE4Ji

Yes, the reason you can't find used ones is because all the exhaust housings cracked, I had a pair of 14 Bs to use as a jig for building my adaptors, I think I got rid of them.The small 16 Gs had the same problem. I think they used a different material after that. The big 16 G came on the evo 3, after that was the evo 4, the engine is the other way around, turbos are mirror imagesand spin the other way, have divided ex housings.....I don't see why they couldn't be used though. 

magn1t wrote:

 The big 16 G came on the evo 3, after that was the evo 4, the engine is the other way around, turbos are mirror imagesand spin the other way, have divided ex housings.....I don't see why they couldn't be used though. 

The small 16g compressor wheel major diameter is 60mm and the large 16g compressor wheel major diameter is 68mm. These compare to my 15g wheel which has a 56mm diameter. Who knows if the large can be used. I know you're sorta saying why a Reverse rotation couldn't be used, and yeah agree with that. It's tempting to run the large 16g and see. I'm hoping to be able to swap out the Comp housing and wheel (and rebalance) if the Lag is too great. That depends upon the Lip on the CHRA. I am hoping to ask Turbocare about that [and expecting to get some dicky/nonsense result] like  you do with most outfits that only know what they know. You can get 9 blade turbine wheels easily from China at $40 USD. Plus $20 postage so for a hundy it's OK. (China quoted me a hundy for the 2 x TD04HL-9 blade turbine wheels.) Here's the interesting stuff.
Apparently the 9 blade is 25% lighter weight than the 12 blade. Given that the comp wheel is alloy and adds little rotational mass thats a huge decrease in Rotational inertia. easier to spool up and respool I guess. Which is what happens when you are fanging through the gears.
Apparently because there are less fins and metal in the way of the exhaust gases, backpressure is reduced AND cooling is increased. I'm not silly though, there is less power to spin up a comp wheel with less fins! But that Cooling element could be a huge bonus.
Denis Beck is running TD04HL- 19T's now, temporarily, because his DR750's went bad, The 19t Comp wheel is 58mm. I don't know what the DR750 comp wheel major dia. is? [ he just pulled a 10.9 in a full fat car in Murica.] As Box says the TD04's are just too restrictive with the 6cm exhaust. stepping up to 7cm is easy. bear in mind the EVO guys with their single turbo's stepped up from 7 to 8 to 10 etc. So the 7 cm with opportunity to open up more with a  9 or 11 blade turbine is safe. just gotta get the comp wheel to suit. It will probably turn out to be the 16g!!.

Hybrid turbos (changing just the compressor) to me is a total waste of time , effort and money.When you look back, it was promoted in the days when turbos were harder to source, they give a minor upgrade and only really benefit the people who get paid to do the work. That statement applies equally to a 9b upgraded to a 13G or to a 9b upgraded to a 15G or anything else.
You only ever get a benefit if you turn up the boost and as it is we're boost limited by using pump fuel....that recent 10.9 you mentioned...it was done on E85, it won't happen with petrol.

When you move to a bigger off the shelf turbo you get the advantage of a bigger compressor but also a bigger turbine, that in it's self will give an increase in performance at the same boost level.

Like everything else you read on a forum.......most forums are sponsored by vendors. 
The money you spend isn't for the benefit of yourself, the user, it's for the benefit of the vendor. Forum vendors are no different from fleas on a dog.
Most (all?) aftermarket products for these cars are total crap.....as finally proven by the 4G versus 6G thing.........if you're actually doing it right a 6G will always be 50% better than a 4G with the equivalent mods.
When it comes to "selling", you always undersell (eg, 13G), that way the customer comes back later for the next stage. All TDO4s are "underselling".


Back to turbos, going back about 20 years I paid $2500 to get my 9bs up to 13Gs, (the original turbos from my black cat, work done by "Total turbo" of wellington. He's recently rolled his racecar and my turbo'sd must have fixed it at that extortionate price.Nothing wrong with the workmanship though. they're now on my red car and still mint.
Then with different turbos I had a whole series of disasters with 15Gs upgraded from 9bs.........they don't work with the original turbines.
Then I imported a pair of 15Gs from US of A which ended up over $2K with freight and tax. They're sitting on a spare engine right now, I might put them up for sale? The only problems that they caused me was a badly adjusted aftermarket BOV (too tight) which bent the fins on the rear compressor after several launches on race day. I had to get it rebuilt.
Then I built adaptors to fit TDO5 20Gs, the adaptors cost pretty much nothing apart from time, the TDO5s were about $650 each. Adaptors themselves are easy, it's the hot side outlet to the exhaust pipe along with the merge from the internal WG, that's what's tricky, then there's the intake plumbing to do too which really should be done even with stock turbos.Then the oil feed and returns which are just the originals cut and joined.

Pretty much anything bigger than TDO4 makes financial sense these days when they start at $350 each.
The one and only reason people want to stay TDO4 is because they're bolt on which really makes no sense at all these days, not to me anyway.

Even if someone were to fork out say $1000 for adaptors, it would make far more sense in the long run. There might even be some available in the new year?...you never know?


The biggest true "bolt on" turbo would be the TDO4 15G because it uses the original compressor cover.
Going to any other turbo there's a degree of fabrication to do.
Doesn't matter what the starting point is, one of the turbos will need clocking, more than likely both of them.
If you haven't thought about it, the oil drain has to point down. The feed is usually on top. The exhaust housing needs clocking to get the inlet flange to the manifold, the intake housing also needs clocking to get the outlet to the correct position. Once that's done the wastgate bracket needs securing to the compressor housing in such a way that it'll work in a straight line and without flopping around. Internal WGs are always better as in simpler, cheaper , less plumbing and required space than going to external WGs.

Magnit or Box may probably be the only ones to answer this question. Each bank of three cylinders emit three exhaust pulses every two cycles of the 6g72 engine on average. (Why I say on average is that overlapping cycles may dictate a crossover either side of the engine). so the Turbo Turbine receives a hot blast every 240 degrees of rotation. Am I right? Or did Mitsi do something like have two cylinders fire on a bank at the same time... which I think they do? So the question is really, does the 6G72 engine send out exhaust pulses evenly or do we have a strange quirk here?

In the Evo's case 4 cylinders pulse into the turbine every 180 degrees of rotation. thats 4 cylinders into one complete 4 stroke cycle.

BATOOH wrote:

. Am I right?
In the Evo's case 4 cylinders pulse into the turbine every 180 degrees of rotation. thats 4 cylinders into one complete 4 stroke cycle.

Yes.
The only oddball V6 you come across is the Holden / Buick as it's 90 deg and derived from a V8 and there's even 2 versions of that because they changed the cranks later on.

Thanks. Speaking of Cranks I've got a supposed TT spare crank here. how do I identify it? I was reading Alan Scott's book about Tom Walkinshaw racing and Jaguars XJS recently and it said the XJS crank was spring steel and they did a torsional vibration test on it to see if it needed any special dampening. It didn't. So whats the story with the Forged/ cast /milled crank for the GTO's Steve. is it true that a 2/3 Gen TT has a Forged crank which is better than a Gen 1 crank. I never really kept up with that topic..

There's the early crank and the later crank. Doesn't matter what they came out of. They changed in about '93, the same time they went to the 4 bolt TT block. The early one is iron, the later one steel.
If there's a dowel in the flywheel flange, it came from a manual, otherwise it's from an auto.Easiest way to tell is from the oil passage drillings, they're all cross drilled in the mains, the later ones are cross drilled in the big ends, the earlier ones are not.

magn1t wrote:

There's the early crank and the later crank. Doesn't matter what they came out of. They changed in about '93, the same time they went to the 4 bolt TT block. The early one is iron, the later one steel.
If there's a dowel in the flywheel flange, it came from a manual, otherwise it's from an auto.Easiest way to tell is from the oil passage drillings, they're all cross drilled in the mains, the later ones are cross drilled in the big ends, the earlier ones are not.

Thanks I'll check tomorrow.

Huge surprise when weighing race car on same weighbridge I weighed it on in Feb 2015. Race car with just under qtr tank of gas is now 1240kg. was 1440kg in Feb 2015 (with1/2 tank gas. front axle was 780kg and rear axle 440kg.

No progress on Turbo's as can't get small 05's, will probably go large 05's and decide if I need to buy the small compressor wheel and covers. The turbo shop said no issue with the major diameter wheel lip on the CHRA not closely matching the wheel itself. Have talked with exhaust man and he can't weld cast iron, but others can in CHCH. yet to speak to them.

still having problems with brakes have reduced M/C to 15/16 inch and now soft pedal. But it at least feels like a brake. I did en event with what I would say were very marginal brakes.....it was a hillclimb!, reduced PB by over 6 seconds.. removed OEM turbo intakes and replaced with lightweight 80mm ducting. Since changing that BOV its feeling (and sounding) a sh** load better. Fixed that dreadful leak from the thermostat housing assembly. swiss cheesed the main front subframe. rear to be done at xmas. Fitted IAT fitting but not wired. needs a retune with IAT and hopefully I will cold idle a little better. Pretty happy that I will easily meet my goal of 1200kg. I will now say I reckon it will go to 1150kg easily enough. Whether I take it much lower than 1200 is more a cost based decision.

awesome news about the weight, so impressive how much youve cut out