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Re: Emanage-Box?

Wed 26 Oct, 2016 6:46 pm

BATOOH wrote:
Thanks mate, Ok had a look at the MAP sensor… I am not really aware of what or why that’s needed, but at a guess…. The MAP sensor gets placed into the Y pipe area- pre T/B (??) and it reads vac and pressure and tells the emanage what to do with the fuel??. That’s my best guess. I had a 30 minute look at Internet and can’t find a really good succinct description of what the MAP does… There seems to be mention of MAF replacement but if you took the MAF airflow sensor out of the GTO wouldn’t the ECU lose Barometric/MAF hertz and IAT’s? I am confused. But yes if a MAP sensor is a good thing to do I would like to understand what the good thing is!!

The MAP sensor plumbs into the intake plenum so you have vacuum and boost feedback to the eManage. It's not needed, but I found it a lot easier to tune using MAP vs RPM based fuel and timing maps. And when you use the onboard datalogger, you've got a PSI reference to go off.

Off the top of my head you can just use the airflow sensor input frequency as your load value instead of MAP which will work just fine but it will take a little bit more to get your head around it. Not the end of the world.

You don't need it - it's just a convenience thing since you've got a "real" number to work with. I used a GM 3 bar MAP sensor on my own setup, it works on the same principal but the scaling was off on the maps since the proper Greddy sensor isn't 3 bar.
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BATOOH
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Re:Phase 2 of the weight reduction process.

Fri 28 Oct, 2016 12:13 pm

Okay I haven't even finished stage 1 yet as I have the bonnet to do and my xmas play job is to take out the left hand front wiring loom running EDIT OOPS...clockwise round the engine bay to the fuse box in the engine bay.. I have got that fuse box down to just a few relays and some minor connections so thats also in the phase 1 sights... but I was thinking about stage 2.... one of items being the Clutch and Brake masters. Ok one of my wee tests is to remove the vac assist line on the brake master and see how it goes.... Do I need that... if I replaced the brake master to the RHS behind the pedal (and put the battery where the brake master is now) I could get rid of the ridiculously heavy (according to Ravensierra) firewall coathanger called the brake pedal bar... And that vac assist on the clutch master is already redundant excess weight. So does the normally aspirated manual GTO have a vac assist Clutch master or is it a just a nice little lightweight master all alone??

And has anybody seen or heard of a solution to reinstating the brake master to the RHS of the firewall (when viewed from inside the cockpit). I would expect not... who has ever tuned a GTO into a Track Car!! not even the Japanese were that silly! My guess is that I will just have to wing it in the knowledge that Mitsi made it left and right hand drive and the brake master will fit that RHS somehow...
 
BATOOH
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Re: Injector seals

Tue 01 Nov, 2016 8:15 am

About to change out the injectors from 560 to 450. Tis time I really made an effort and replaced the bottom insulator seal and the top o ring and rail sealing rings. So chaps where would I buy these?? And would anybody suggest lightly siliconing the bottom insulator seal into position in the manifold??
 
magn1t
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Re: GTO Track Project-Here we go.

Tue 01 Nov, 2016 10:02 am

That's a step in the right direction.
For 560s you NEED timing control.

450s you'll get away with it by having an adjustable CAS, you should max out at about 500 ish HP rather than the 400 ish with stock injectors and the less than 400 ish with 560s and NO timing control.

Maybe have them flow tested before fitting?
quote from barryboys.
Yes, yes, yes, that might be so, but you're clearly missing the bigger picture.....
4 intercoolers!!!!!!!!
Beat that!!!!
 
BATOOH
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Re: GTO Track Project-Here we go.

Tue 01 Nov, 2016 11:47 am

magn1t wrote:
That's a step in the right direction.
For 560s you NEED timing control.

450s you'll get away with it by having an adjustable CAS, you should max out at about 500 ish HP rather than the 400 ish with stock injectors and the less than 400 ish with 560s and NO timing control.

Maybe have them flow tested before fitting?



Yeah had them tested... all the same. Do you reckon those phenolic spacers the the bottom of the injector on the manifold leak under boost??
 
magn1t
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Re: GTO Track Project-Here we go.

Tue 01 Nov, 2016 12:21 pm

They're rubber.
I've had a couple split and leak. They go hard over time but if they're not split then hopefully they're OK.
A bit of RTV will help them seal.
quote from barryboys.
Yes, yes, yes, that might be so, but you're clearly missing the bigger picture.....
4 intercoolers!!!!!!!!
Beat that!!!!
 
fastbikes76
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Re: GTO Track Project-Here we go.

Wed 02 Nov, 2016 5:12 am

BATOOH wrote:

Yeah had them tested... all the same. Do you reckon those phenolic spacers the the bottom of the injector on the manifold leak under boost??


Yes they do leak under boost when old. They get indentations from the injectors pressing on them and shrink slightly from heat. I've had ones leak before which showed up with a boost leak test. They are the same as the EVO ones and still readily available from Mitsubishi
, I replaced some in Skates engine recently .
1997 MK3 490hp/ 530ftlbs. Standard non turbo engine 11.84 @ 115mph and 11.87 @ 119mph. 3.7 seconds 0-60
CLICKY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8kb8voxCNs
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BATOOH
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Re: Cooling issues couRtesy of front mount I/C

Fri 18 Nov, 2016 11:11 am

Chopped to this thread as I didn’t want to clutter up Skates thread about my cooling issues..

Ok had a good look at the I/C /airflow into the Rad last night. The way I have mounted my FMIC like most others I would think is to bolt the top posts of the I/C into the overhead crossmember using the factory holes which fit both of my I/C’s perfectly. That way the thing can’t move and it’s right flush under the cross member. However by shrouding the sides and bottom of the I/C using the stock plastic shroud cut down to suit, I have effectively almost fully blocked off all the fresh airflow to the radiator, apart from what blows through the I/C, and in my case also through a larger oil cooler). When you see that the top of the radiator is much higher than the top of the I/C, you realise sh** there’s a huge radiator getting fed by a half size I/C opening, well that would be my estimation… the surface area of the I/C would be about 50% the surface area of a stock RAD. Ok so the I/C can’t go up, can go sideways, but that’s a pain especially if like me you have turned hard out of the I/C to go up to the T/B through the radiator opening instead of going round the right hand chassis member and up through the sidewall of the engine bay like the SMIC did, but it can go down by about 2 inches/50mm- without impacting the plastic bumper or the roadway!!. So first thing for me to try here is dropping the Intercooler straight down by about 25mm. That will provide a 25mm x 700mm slot through which cooler air can flow into the big void between the I/C and the rad. At speed that’s quite a bit of an opening. Problem is won’t get a chance to see if it works until I do a circuit of something, next event is standing flying qtr.
 
magn1t
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Re: GTO Track Project-Here we go.

Sun 20 Nov, 2016 10:55 am

Higher pressure caps cause the radiator to pop when other things go wrong.
It raises the pressure and raises the boiling point but doesn't improve cooling so it's a bad move.

Fans only improve cooling when doing less than 20Km/h.
They do zero when you're above that speed and if anything they restrict airflow.
quote from barryboys.
Yes, yes, yes, that might be so, but you're clearly missing the bigger picture.....
4 intercoolers!!!!!!!!
Beat that!!!!
 
magn1t
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Re: GTO Track Project-Here we go.

Sun 20 Nov, 2016 12:26 pm

Boiling water causes pressure.
Heat causes water to boil.
Water boils at a higher temperature when it's under more pressure.
If you can't get rid of the heat, it'll get hotter and hotter.
If the pressure can't get out..............something will burst.


It comes back to the start of doing modifications.
Every modification is a compromise.
You do the first one in order to fix a certain problem.
That causes 2 more problems.
Then you have to do 2 more modifications to fix those 2 problems but that causes 4 more problems.

The best way is often to go backwards and rethink the original problem and fix it in a better way.

Sidemounts.
2 of them because there's 2 turbos.
quote from barryboys.
Yes, yes, yes, that might be so, but you're clearly missing the bigger picture.....
4 intercoolers!!!!!!!!
Beat that!!!!
 
skates
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Re: GTO Track Project-Here we go.

Sun 20 Nov, 2016 11:53 pm

Steve you are a dumb ignorant chunt. And it seems you have your fair share of teat suckling admin. So c*** suckers you may ban me and delete all my posts. Not just a select few. Get me the f*** outta here.
You should be f**king embarrassed of yourselves being slow as f*** and sucking Steves slow arse d***.

GTOperformance :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
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Gazza
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Re: GTO Track Project-Here we go.

Mon 21 Nov, 2016 12:54 am

skates wrote:
Steve you are a dumb ignorant chunt. And it seems you have your fair share of teat suckling admin. So c*** suckers you may ban me and delete all my posts. Not just a select few. Get me the f*** outta here.
You should be f**king embarrassed of yourselves being slow as f*** and sucking Steves slow arse d***.

GTOperformance :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Wow. Off ya go then.
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au naturel.
 
skates
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Re: GTO Track Project-Here we go.

Mon 21 Nov, 2016 2:09 am

Gazza wrote:
skates wrote:
Steve you are a dumb ignorant chunt. And it seems you have your fair share of teat suckling admin. So c*** suckers you may ban me and delete all my posts. Not just a select few. Get me the f*** outta here.
You should be f**king embarrassed of yourselves being slow as f*** and sucking Steves slow arse d***.

GTOperformance :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Wow. Off ya go then.



Seriously?! You are even painfully slow at getting me removed, are you driving your car to the computer :lol:
 
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Chronos_c4
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Re: GTO Track Project-Here we go.

Mon 21 Nov, 2016 7:17 am

Hah wow ok. Not gonna remove your posts mate, if you want them gone remove them yourself.
You've done nothing but show everyone how childish you are. We all know what Steve is like but clearly you're letting it get to you. Welcome to the Internet.
All I asked was for everyone (not just you) to be civil but clearly that was too challenging.

On ya bike

Let's carry on this ride thread for BATOOH's sake
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Follow the progress: My rides thread HERE
 
skates
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Re: GTO Track Project-Here we go.

Mon 21 Nov, 2016 9:56 am

Like I said, I'm only here to rip on Steve. Looks like it's going to continue.
I'm sorry for those of you that are stuck behind him for genuine reasons. But f*** me hit the pedal on the right and you'd drop him like a sack of sh**.
 
BATOOH
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Re: GTO Track Project-Here we go.

Mon 21 Nov, 2016 11:01 am

2016-11-21 07.01.08.jpg
2016-11-21 07.01.08.jpg
Here’s a couple of shots of the new FMIC positioned 25mm lower on the crossmember, allowing cool air direct to the radiator – and Oil Cooler. One pic is Bumper on, the other off. (My bumper is cut down.) I could have made the FMIC lower by about 15 more millimetres but that puts it as low as the lower crossmember, so better to play safe. I will try this and see if this affects temps. I also assessed the oil cooler to come out of the sandwich between RAD and FMIC and mount immediately to the left of the FMIC (right in photos) whilst this is possible it would take a fair it of alteration to the 75mm Intercooler pipe feeding the FMIC… wait and see. Skates if you are using a FMIC on the latest incarnation, this is something to consider.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
 
BATOOH
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Re:EVOSCAN

Mon 21 Nov, 2016 11:28 am

I had a little time in the weekend to review some EVOSCAN logs of last Wednesdays track tuning session. Nothing too worrying as the injectors which are now 450cc are maxing out at about 88%, the Temps--- are probably the most worrying thing have been covered by previous post, but one thing puzzles me and I’m worried about it. My highest knock count was 2. But why does the graphic illustration show three different scalings of knock count when knock is the only parameter you select to view. What would be the reason it wants to break down one knock count into tiny infinitesimal gradients up to a level and then show another scale up to another level and THEN show a final scale and when you settle your mouse on the knock peak it tells you -2. I checked that it wasn’t a scale issue by displaying a number of other parameters on the same graphic and you know when you hold your cursor above any points on the graphic it boxes up a display of all parameters at that position…. Again same thing 2.

I went back to some logs I had of the road car way back in 2011 and there was knock- good as gold- at about 20 and that was obviously when I was pfaffing around with high boost and 360 Injectors way back then…. Does anybody know how to drag of an EVOSCAN FILE and post up on here???

I may take a pic of the screen shot and post it up tonight.
 
magn1t
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Re: Re:EVOSCAN

Mon 21 Nov, 2016 1:40 pm

BATOOH wrote:
I My highest knock count was 2. But why does the graphic illustration show three different scalings of knock count when knock is the only parameter you select to view.


That peak of 2 should have been at peak torque or at about 4000 RPMs? which is about perfect.
The rest of it is just an evoscan thing........try their website.

In simple terms when you select knock........you send out the address corresponding to knock...........then the knock data comes back.


It's the same whether you use Evoscan, MMCD or anything else. The car computer can't send anything else back.
The rest is just how the Evoscan interprets it.

Most of the parameters you log are an 8 bit word (2 bits in hex) so there's 256 possibilities ranging from 0 to 255. Knock is a bit different because the max is 28, at least it IS with MMCD. Evoscan might be different?


BATOOH wrote:
Nothing too worrying as the injectors which are now 450cc are maxing out at about 88%,


Reported IDC is always high, you'll find that it's actually about 73%

That should convert to about 350 HP at peak IDC.


Have you thought about using MMCD as well or instead of evoscan?
You're probably the only person using evoscan on a GTO where MMCD has been updated specifically for V6s.
quote from barryboys.
Yes, yes, yes, that might be so, but you're clearly missing the bigger picture.....
4 intercoolers!!!!!!!!
Beat that!!!!
 
BATOOH
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Re: GTO Track Project-Here we go.

Mon 21 Nov, 2016 3:14 pm

Thanks Steve, I did see that MMCD stuff somewhere.

Also I'm going to have a look at that timing and see if a little more advance reduces my overheating issue. I dragged a couple of degrees out of it again when I put the 450's in, as I was worried about running lean. I don't know why I did that. The temp increase was definitely observed on EvoScan though.I still have the mark on the CAS where it was with the 560's. I'm sick of 350hp I was after 400. I had dragged the boost down to 14/15psi. Then I had an electrical failure where the EBC, Wideband and Radiator fan stopped going, it was an inline fuse from the Ignition switch that had overheated the plastic and the unsprung end of that fuse contact had retreated into the plastic of the holder causing a complete DIS. So it's good I'm learning the hard way. I can't wait until xmas holidays to pull all the wiring sh** out of the front of this car and hopefully tidy it up and make it better. It would be so nice to get rid of that central junction in the drivers footwell.
 
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ravensierra
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Re: GTO Track Project-Here we go.

Mon 21 Nov, 2016 4:20 pm

magn1t wrote:
Higher pressure caps cause the radiator to pop when other things go wrong.
It raises the pressure and raises the boiling point but doesn't improve cooling so it's a bad move.

Fans only improve cooling when doing less than 20Km/h.
They do zero when you're above that speed and if anything they restrict airflow.


Well actually yes you will improve the rate of cooling with a higher pressure cap, since you will raise the system temperature and therefore the ΔT between the heat exchanger (radiator) and ambient.

The rate of heat transfer is proportional to ΔT.
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magn1t
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Re: GTO Track Project-Here we go.

Mon 21 Nov, 2016 5:34 pm

So how hot is too hot?

When the gauge gets into the red.........panic time.
Which is before it starts to boil with the factory cap on.

Because the Mitsubishi engineers designed it correctly.
ravensierra wrote:

Well actually yes you will improve the rate of cooling with a higher pressure cap, since you will raise the system temperature and therefore the ΔT between the heat exchanger (radiator) and ambient.

The rate of heat transfer is proportional to ΔT.



From your above post you're implying that running it hotter than stock with a higher pressure cap improves cooling ability......which makes no sense.

Raising the pressure doesn't raise the temp.
The temp is controlled by the thermostat until the system is overloaded.
quote from barryboys.
Yes, yes, yes, that might be so, but you're clearly missing the bigger picture.....
4 intercoolers!!!!!!!!
Beat that!!!!
 
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Gazza
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Re: GTO Track Project-Here we go.

Mon 21 Nov, 2016 7:05 pm

I'd have to agree, surely the objective is to have the engine running at its design temperature, rather than simply modifying the cooling system to run hotter? I get how you will technically be removing more heat the hotter it is, but I don't think that's as important as keeping the engine cool,

That gap doesn't look very big IMO, does the FMIC cover the entire radiator lengthways?
Image
au naturel.
 
skates
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Re: GTO Track Project-Here we go.

Mon 21 Nov, 2016 8:46 pm

It's just Steve being a retard and you lot falling for it as usual.
If the water can absorb more heat then it will protect the engine for longer. In the same vein you could run a lower temp stat if you had standalone. It's then the job of the radiator to remove the heat from the water.
If you could be bothered, you can calculate how much heat you need to remove for a given power requirement. You could then design a cooling system to suit. I have the numbers for 450hp if anyone wanted to shoot that high, but I guess reducing the power output in the most complex way possible is more appealing :lol:
 
magn1t
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Re: GTO Track Project-Here we go.

Mon 21 Nov, 2016 10:01 pm

It goes back to the same argument where if you try to modify something that 's not broken, it ends up broken.
Modifying the cooling system by putting a heater in front of the radiator isn't clever, it ends up broken.


You can argue that one for ever but the facts don't change.

skates wrote:
If the water can absorb more heat then it will protect the engine for longer. In the same vein you could run a lower temp stat if you had standalone. It's then the job of the radiator to remove the heat from the water.


The only way the water can absorb more heat is by the temperature increasing.

The engine is designed to operate between certain temperature limits, simply put, too hot or too cold causes problems.

As I tried to explain to your redneck partner, I'm an expert in cooling systems because I live at 300 feet and to go anywhere I have to climb to 600 feet then drop to sea level over a total of about 4 km. Then the reverse to come home. I've been doing this at least once a day and I've lived here for the last 30 years. I've been driving for over 40 years.That tallies up at over 10,000 times. There's at least one car dies on the hill every day, sometimes it's just a lack of fuel, they die on the corners, often you see them stopped with steam pouring out. You can't live where I live and drive a car with a dodgy cooling system............all the locals toot and wave and keep on going.

Seeing that you're bored and need a good laugh, check this out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXYsDV1Ve7E
Hillclimbs are always more fun than dragracing.

Of course you can't get away with doing this sort of thing anymore due to the cameras.


Just for the hell of it, here's a shot going up the other side, a bit slow though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yX3SB-V1dqA

If you've got a RWD car with V8 and turbo you can get the rear wheels spinning right at 0.24 where you go over the tunnel.

Back in about 1990 there was no median barrier, one of my workmates got splattered on a bike when he T boned a van which had run out of petrol and the driver thought it would be a good idea to turn around by reversing and doing a U turn at the same time. That put me off bikes a bit.

But anyway.........hillclimbs are the best way to check out a cooling system. But not just a cooling system.

Dragracing, that's only a few seconds and things don't have time to get hot. The intercooler acts as a heatsink , as does the coolant. It then gets rid of the excess heat while it's sitting back in the pits, quicker if everything is black.
Likewise a dyno is pretty useless for testing heatsoak, very same reasons.
Circuit racing, each lap the temps climb higher and higher, often after about 6 laps or so, you'll see the limitations of your setup.


edit, I forgot to mention the towcar part of it.
4 tons all up with a full trailer on the back.
50 to 60 Ks all the way up, 2nd gear, 3000 to 4000 RPM, in and out of boost all the way......3 minutes to get to the top.
Never a single sign of trying to overheat with stock cooling system and SMICs.
quote from barryboys.
Yes, yes, yes, that might be so, but you're clearly missing the bigger picture.....
4 intercoolers!!!!!!!!
Beat that!!!!
 
BATOOH
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Re: Re:EVOSCAN

Fri 25 Nov, 2016 6:56 am

magn1t wrote:
Have you thought about using MMCD as well or instead of evoscan?
You're probably the only person using evoscan on a GTO where MMCD has been updated specifically for V6s.


what can you use to display MMCd? Looks like these Palm/Pilots are old hat now??

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