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fastbikes76
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Re: GTO Track Project-Here we go.

Tue 18 Oct, 2016 5:11 am

:? :? :?
Last edited by fastbikes76 on Thu 24 Nov, 2016 6:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
1997 MK3 490hp/ 530ftlbs. Standard non turbo engine 11.84 @ 115mph and 11.87 @ 119mph. 3.7 seconds 0-60
CLICKY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8kb8voxCNs
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BATOOH
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Re: GTO Track Project-Here we go.

Tue 18 Oct, 2016 8:47 am

Thanks for Advice Box, and Fastbikes, and Magnit (your advice ages ago)...
Way I see things at moment….Options are;
6a13tt ECU and chip it. Magnit says there is an issue with Knock sensor so there could be more issues. Then there is the 3 plug to 4 plug harness issue. I think I may be fighting issues with this and I’m not that clever.
Emanage or similar. Valid yes, but puts me in the master of all trades seat again, at least I could try and fall back on you. I know the stock ecu works fine as I can see it pulling timing. I can fit and work the SAFC2 so all I would have to learn is the timing side of things. And it lets me keep all the sensors and loom as they are.
Map ECU/Megasquirt ECU or similar… I once bought a $20 home alarm security kit from d*** Smith, I put some components on the PCB and that was that, never went any further! I feel the cheaper end of ECU’s would leave me stranded and I would probably end up detonating the engine!
Link ECU- After talking with NZEFI I have an opinion that their family is there for one reason – to entrap you into their world and feather their nest and reputation, all fine for the guys that spend $5k a year on their race cars…. This is a $2500-$4000 option depending on whether I do the installation and then there’s dynoing on top plus sensors, plus hidden costs which I was lucky to uncover before I used them to Dyno my Car…
AEM plug in ECU These were NZ $1800 last year now they are nearly $2300 ish in part due to exchange rate. I was considering this. however I would be doing everything again like trying to setup Laptop etc ( I find that a pain as the laptop I have is nearly 10 years old runs two operating systems XP and Vista and I hate it, but at least it’s got Evoscan on it).

Anyway… for now, I’m taking the 560’s out and replacing with 450’s. Run it round ruapuna for a day and get what I can out of it. Then fire it down the standing and flying quarter and see if I have improved… So I will ponder the Emanage seriously.
Anybody else got any opinions no matter how or what they are – post up- I won’t bite.
 
BATOOH
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Re: GTO Track Project-Here we go.

Tue 18 Oct, 2016 1:03 pm

Well I might have made an improvement of 7.12 seconds on my PB in the Hillclimb, but that’s cold comfort on the average reduction in times across the field of around the same amount! I can now tell where I’m going slow, corner speed is fine, overall speed is fine, it’s the lag in second gear at low rpm out of about 4-5 corners. Honestly it’s just like waiting for the last 200 metres or so to tick by in the standing quarter, really boring even though it’s doing a late 12 second time. When you are waiting for power to come on tap that’s when you are going slow. Many NA cars that are beating my time don’t have that lag. I can see in their videos that they are on it straight out of the corner. I freely admit I’m a nana when it comes to the last 483 metres which is a high speed 100mph blast along the ridge to the finish with a couple of little directional changes and a walloping 500 foot plus drop off to the left. Still it’s not as bad as some of the Summit road Hillclimb drop-offs, the guys were saying if you went over the edge there you would be dead by the time you had rolled 100 times.
 
magn1t
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Re: GTO Track Project-Here we go.

Tue 18 Oct, 2016 5:41 pm

You're never going to run 550 cc injectors successfully in a GTO without timing control.
You get too much timing advance at mid RPMs and it'll knock. The knock starts before you get to max torque RPMs.

The end result is that you make less power than what you'd make if you'd left it alone with stock injectors.



Going back to about the year 2000 when I started playing with these things seriously, I got opinions from 3 different local "tuners".......Actually "parts changers".

Andre at "speedtech" tried to sell me the original wire in link because you "can't tune the stock computer".
Richard at "the chequered flag" told me the same bullshit.
Then "Dave" from "total turbo" told me the same thing........tried to sell me something else.


That was back in 2000 with the original "links".


Fast forwards a couple of yours, the next generation of link came out.
But you tried to sell me the wire in link and now you're telling me it's no good because the newer model is better?
But what was wrong with it then???


Every time a newer model comes out these people tell you that the last model had problems.




I'm still on the stock ECU, I'm running 880cc injectors, removed the speed limiter, bumped up the rev limit to 9200, got mivec working automatically through the active exhaust control, the knock control works.
What more could you want?
These other fancy features like launch control, they destroy your turbos and engine.

When the next generation of link comes out, these salesmen / parts fitters are still going to tell you that all of the previous versions of link weren't as good.............and link's knock control still doesn't work with the stock sensor (but they won't tell you that because they don't know).


Meanwhile DR did their 8.6 /168 or whatever it was on a stock , non reflashable ECU.
Think on that for a while?


Having a programmable computer means that there's infinitely more ways to get it wrong, not right.
quote from barryboys.
Yes, yes, yes, that might be so, but you're clearly missing the bigger picture.....
4 intercoolers!!!!!!!!
Beat that!!!!
 
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box
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Re: GTO Track Project-Here we go.

Tue 18 Oct, 2016 6:36 pm

BATOOH wrote:
This is a $2500-$4000 option depending on whether I do the installation and then there’s dynoing on top plus sensors, plus hidden costs which I was lucky to uncover before I used them to Dyno my Car….

Yeah it's crazy expensive. 6 grand is a realistic number for a drive in/drive out job.....scary stuff really. And like Barry said, todays bee's knees/top of the line computer will be tomorrows dinosaur that no one wants to touch.

A properly functioning piggyback system will always make the same amount of power as a standalone. Fuel and timing....there's no magic to it.

You should've bought my emanage when I sold it.
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magn1t
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Re: GTO Track Project-Here we go.

Tue 18 Oct, 2016 8:43 pm

As far as the pipes blowing off goes..........it's easy to do some simple maths.
If it's about 3 inch diameter (Y pipe to throttle), the cross section area is about 7 inches square.
If you spike the boost to 20 PSI then the force trying to blow it off will be 140 ish pounds or about 64 Kgs.
That's like me turning the engine on end and suspending my whole body weight on the pipe trying to see if gravity will rip it off.

But the silliest part is that the force exerted by the clamp to try to hold it on is at 90 degrees to the applied force made by boost......fail.
It should be an equal and opposite force to cancel the effect of boost.


Using an example of the intercooler pipes, roughly 40mm dia, 1.6 inch.Just a bit under 2 inch square, at 20 PSI boost, that's 40 pounds or only 17Kgs trying to blow it off.




That's why you use either wire or bolts.
The Vauxhall cresta turbo V8 drag car (local Hutt Valley car) is a great example of that (bolted on pipes), it's got brilliant engineering in it............because the owner of it has been modifying it since before the internet existed.

This one........https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkY6l9MrlSE
It's been turbod for ever.......I first had a good look at it in 1988 ish.

Have you ever seen a jap turbo car with pipes bolted together?
NO, of course not..............sheep.
Got to be blue hose and expensive clamps.
Last edited by magn1t on Tue 18 Oct, 2016 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
quote from barryboys.
Yes, yes, yes, that might be so, but you're clearly missing the bigger picture.....
4 intercoolers!!!!!!!!
Beat that!!!!
 
BATOOH
Topic Author
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Re: GTO Track Project-Here we go.

Tue 18 Oct, 2016 8:55 pm

Thanks guys, agree with all you've said, except I haven't detonated it yet and when I had evoscan on it knock was almost non existent. I think a major factor in the difference between what I will be tuning here and the stock heavyweight GTO is about 300-400 kg and that must be a big factor in terms of load. If I've cumulatively damaged the engine we will find out sooner rather than later. I'm hoping the 450's will give me back a bit of that snap and the standing qtr time won't lie.
 
magn1t
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Re: GTO Track Project-Here we go.

Tue 18 Oct, 2016 9:19 pm

fastbikes76 wrote:

A 11b UK spec car with front mount and VIPEC ecu here made 408hp on a known good dyno we use as the benchmark here. People on piggy backs and same setup usually manage mid to late 300's so they do have their merits. The key thing though is are you capable to fiddling and changing maps every time you make any changes to the system ?



I've got a dyno sheet from 2003 , 305.8Kw on the chequered flags Dynapack....that's 410HP............at a max of 16 pounds boost on 15Gs. With the ARC2, before I had the ITC..........But I had water injection.


So.......the computer really has zero do do with it.
13 years of computer development, ........advanced features.....................for what?

Now I've got the ARC2, AFC, ITC, they've all got knobs.
I can set it up for one combo of fuel...........do another tune for a different combo of fuel...........do as many as I want.


Write down the knob positions in my notebook for next times setup with whatever combo.
Not only the fuel mix but also the water injection mix, as that's a sort of auxiliary injector.

Now if you had a link or an AEM or even a megasquirt.........you wouldn't be able to do it.
10% methanol in the tank, 20% methanol in the tank, add 20 litres xylene? retune, put some alcohol in the water injection tank, retune........set it up on a road in 2nd gear from walking speed.......without exceeding the speed limit.
quote from barryboys.
Yes, yes, yes, that might be so, but you're clearly missing the bigger picture.....
4 intercoolers!!!!!!!!
Beat that!!!!
 
skates
Posts: 47
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Re: GTO Track Project-Here we go.

Tue 18 Oct, 2016 11:11 pm

450cc SAFC and an adjustable regulator was enough for me to beat magtit. Now my posts are edited to stop you going fast. DONT DO IT!

That's on stock turbos too :lol:
Last edited by skates on Mon 21 Nov, 2016 12:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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ravensierra
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Re: GTO Track Project-Here we go.

Wed 19 Oct, 2016 7:05 pm

My personal opinion

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fastbikes76
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Re: GTO Track Project-Here we go.

Thu 20 Oct, 2016 12:36 am

ravensierra wrote:
My personal opinion


If I'm interpreting that correctly its pretty much what I say. Up to a point piggybacks are easier and do the job just fine, after that (around 500hp IMO) a stand alone comes into its own.
1997 MK3 490hp/ 530ftlbs. Standard non turbo engine 11.84 @ 115mph and 11.87 @ 119mph. 3.7 seconds 0-60
CLICKY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8kb8voxCNs
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BATOOH
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Re: GTO Track Project-Here we go.

Thu 20 Oct, 2016 8:59 am

ravensierra wrote:
My personal opinion ]


Hey there Aucklander… love the graph mate, you’ve mastered the XY axis perfectly! Just Imagine getting all of us in the Classroom and the Subject is “Tuning”…. She’d be an entertaining little event, undoubtedly. The one common bond between all of us is our liking of the old GTO….!
 
magn1t
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Re: GTO Track Project-Here we go.

Thu 20 Oct, 2016 11:38 am

DR must have got it all wrong then and all those wannabes trying to do better than DR (with AEMs etc) got it right?

Really?


What about that "Nelson" fella?
His must have blown up again ?


But if you throw lots and lots of money at it, it'll win?
NO.

3SX wins.
quote from barryboys.
Yes, yes, yes, that might be so, but you're clearly missing the bigger picture.....
4 intercoolers!!!!!!!!
Beat that!!!!
 
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ravensierra
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Location: Auckland City

Re: GTO Track Project-Here we go.

Thu 20 Oct, 2016 6:53 pm

BATOOH wrote:

Hey there Aucklander… love the graph mate, you’ve mastered the XY axis perfectly! Just Imagine getting all of us in the Classroom and the Subject is “Tuning”…. She’d be an entertaining little event, undoubtedly. The one common bond between all of us is our liking of the old GTO….!


Congrats on the 1st place at the standing quarter, and the new PB at the hill climb man! That's the one just SW of Little River right?

I will be goofing off at the back of the class and still won't be able to run 12 seconds after I graduate ;) Barry will get kicked out for arguing with the professor haha.
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Blitz92
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Re: GTO Track Project-Here we go.

Fri 21 Oct, 2016 6:54 pm

Hey, temporary hijack :D :D I spend a lot of time reading all of your debates on here dreaming of the day I actually have money to do up my car. I'm curious, as long as I do my homework, roughly all I would need to take my car up a few notches is some form of piggyback computer, some data logging, and a tickle up of the fuel system. Am I reading this right? I'd really like a 2kcup car but getting the old girl to teretonga to a track day is likely as close as I'm going to get for a while so this could be a fun little project to try. If all fails I have 2 spare motors for round two and a 2nd car anyway. All I have currently is a GFB electronic boost controller. Thoughts??
I've owned GTO's since before I had a licence.
 
BATOOH
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Re: GTO Track Project-Here we go.

Fri 21 Oct, 2016 8:51 pm

Blitz92 wrote:
Hey, temporary hijack :D :D I spend a lot of time reading all of your debates on here dreaming of the day I actually have money to do up my car. I'm curious, as long as I do my homework, roughly all I would need to take my car up a few notches is some form of piggyback computer, some data logging, and a tickle up of the fuel system. Am I reading this right? I'd really like a 2kcup car but getting the old girl to teretonga to a track day is likely as close as I'm going to get for a while so this could be a fun little project to try. If all fails I have 2 spare motors for round two and a 2nd car anyway. All I have currently is a GFB electronic boost controller. Thoughts??


My thoughts are firmly on your spare motors mate! So you haven't made a jet boat out of one of them yet.

It would be fairly easy to prepare for a 2k cup race, brakes, tyres like Box was using, reduce weight, make sure you have Intercooling and 98 and if boosting pull a couple of degrees timing out of it. Change the steering wheel as well. That alone makes you feel better!!

You don't have to do all of that you just have to account for the massive weight you will be tipping into and round the corners..
 
BATOOH
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Re: Emanage-Box?

Tue 25 Oct, 2016 10:36 am

Hey Box,

Getting hold of an Emanage is quite hard these days, however I can get a brand new one from Japan for sub $400NZ (to me). Seems cheap enough what do you reckon. And Emanage Ultimate are the newest model and look to incorporate Knock Management- but the stock ECU is doing that anyway isn’t it. Whats your opinion of the Ultimate?
 
BATOOH
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Re:Turbo's-Idea?

Tue 25 Oct, 2016 10:37 am

I have an idea I want to get comments on. I have 3 x sets of Turbo’s for my two GTO’s. 2 x stock 9b’s and 1 x 15g/HL. All of them are good. I have a spare set of 13c (ex Volvo) compressor wheels and housings. I am thinking the following, in order to keep spool up as quick as possible, get the CHRA cut out to accept the 13c’s. Then I would have a stock Turbine with all it’s associated lack of grunt in spinning a bigger Comp wheel and restriction etc, but it may just be able to still spin up that 13c. there is very little weight and size difference between the 9b and the 13c wheels, I am hoping that this would then allow a bit better performance at the top end of the rpm range, which is where the 9b lacked at higher boost. Poor mans answer to a 13c/L combo? Anyway I would still have 3 x sets, meaning I have a spare for the race car.
 
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Blitz92
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Re: Emanage-Box?

Tue 25 Oct, 2016 6:16 pm

BATOOH wrote:
Hey Box,

Getting hold of an Emanage is quite hard these days, however I can get a brand new one from Japan for sub $400NZ (to me). Seems cheap enough what do you reckon. And Emanage Ultimate are the newest model and look to incorporate Knock Management- but the stock ECU is doing that anyway isn’t it. Whats your opinion of the Ultimate?


Are you getting that from somewhere specific in japan? I only ask as I'm going in February
I've owned GTO's since before I had a licence.
 
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box
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Re: Emanage-Box?

Tue 25 Oct, 2016 8:37 pm

BATOOH wrote:
Whats your opinion of the Ultimate?

It works well and has decent support on this platform which make installation and tuning a breeze....besides, you can't go wrong for that price, you should be able to flog the SAFC off for atleast a hundred bucks.

I'd recommend you grab a MAP sensor while you're at it. I don't think the Greddy sensor was too badly priced the last time I checked.
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BATOOH
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Re: Emanage-Box?

Wed 26 Oct, 2016 9:12 am

Blitz92 wrote:

Are you getting that from somewhere specific in japan? I only ask as I'm going in February


Thanks Blitz, I really appreciate that, but it's just a yahoo purchase so pretty straight forward. I know how much of a hassle it is going unknown places to find something when you are travelling, I know this from experience. Try Italy for size! Japan would be worse I'm sure. At least yahoo has the translate feature!
 
BATOOH
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Re: Emanage-Box?

Wed 26 Oct, 2016 9:24 am

box wrote:
BATOOH wrote:
Whats your opinion of the Ultimate?

It works well and has decent support on this platform which make installation and tuning a breeze....besides, you can't go wrong for that price, you should be able to flog the SAFC off for atleast a hundred bucks.

I'd recommend you grab a MAP sensor while you're at it. I don't think the Greddy sensor was too badly priced the last time I checked.



Thanks mate, Ok had a look at the MAP sensor… I am not really aware of what or why that’s needed, but at a guess…. The MAP sensor gets placed into the Y pipe area- pre T/B (??) and it reads vac and pressure and tells the emanage what to do with the fuel??. That’s my best guess. I had a 30 minute look at Internet and can’t find a really good succinct description of what the MAP does… There seems to be mention of MAF replacement but if you took the MAF airflow sensor out of the GTO wouldn’t the ECU lose Barometric/MAF hertz and IAT’s? I am confused. But yes if a MAP sensor is a good thing to do I would like to understand what the good thing is!!
 
skates
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Re: Re:Turbo's-Idea?

Wed 26 Oct, 2016 11:30 am

[quote="BATOOH"]I have an idea I want to get comments on. I have 3 x sets of Turbo’s for my two GTO’s. 2 x stock 9b’s and 1 x 15g/HL. All of them are good. I have a spare set of 13c (ex Volvo) compressor wheels and housings. I am thinking the following, in order to keep spool up as quick as possible, get the CHRA cut out to accept the 13c’s. Then I would have a stock Turbine with all it’s associated lack of grunt in spinning a bigger Comp wheel and restriction etc, but it may just be able to still spin up that 13c. there is very little weight and size difference between the 9b and the 13c wheels, I am hoping that this would then allow a bit better performance at the top end of the rpm range, which is where the 9b lacked at higher boost. Poor mans answer to a 13c/L combo? Anyway I would still have 3 x sets, meaning I have a spare for the race ca
Last edited by skates on Mon 21 Nov, 2016 12:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
magn1t
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Re: GTO Track Project-Here we go.

Wed 26 Oct, 2016 12:01 pm

To me, it's not worth messing with hybrid turbos, too much $$$$$$ and it's always risky that they might not have been built right. I've had bad experiences with them.

Adaptors are easy to make or have made. In the long term a better option.

That way you can use whatever stock turbos you want to. Clock them, make new hot and cold pipes for them.
It's like having a stock computer.......if and when it breaks, a replacement is relatively cheap and easy to find.

I've never had a problem with slow spool up but a leaking BOV or WG with insufficient preload will do it.
quote from barryboys.
Yes, yes, yes, that might be so, but you're clearly missing the bigger picture.....
4 intercoolers!!!!!!!!
Beat that!!!!
 
BATOOH
Topic Author
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Re: GTO Track Project-Here we go.

Wed 26 Oct, 2016 12:28 pm

magn1t wrote:
To me, it's not worth messing with hybrid turbos, too much $$$$$$ and it's always risky that they might not have been built right. I've had bad experiences with them.

Adaptors are easy to make or have made. In the long term a better option.

That way you can use whatever stock turbos you want to. Clock them, make new hot and cold pipes for them.
It's like having a stock computer.......if and when it breaks, a replacement is relatively cheap and easy to find.

I've never had a problem with slow spool up but a leaking BOV or WG with insufficient preload will do it.


But to me It's the turbo's I love working on the most.. even after fitting left handed turbine wheel and spinning the shaft nut off and destroying the comp wheels and the turbines as well!!! I fixed that though- myself apart from the balancing. And for me I have the base turbo's there doing nothing, and the same for the 13c's and hosuings. all it's gonna cost me is a couple of hundred to get the housings into a lathe and the assemblies balanced so probably $200. and then a minor refitting chnage with the intake pipes and the wastegate actuator mountings again, and I've got the silicon adaptors for the comp. outlets so no great cost to me.And I've got spares in the form of trubo bearings/seals etc.

But yes you're right Steve I have been thinking about Wastegates leaking... I checked them when refitted so they both activate the same and that was about 13-14 psi on tyre pressure gun..thats got to be my first calibration check that bloody gun. BOV is stock and thats not leaking as I've checked it. Time to make a leak testing system for the I/C piping etc I think... I put at least 3 turns of preload on those gates... maybe it's just those big heavy HL turbine wheels- they are much heavier than stock wheels.

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