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BATOOH
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Re: GTO Track Project-Here we go.

Wed 20 Mar, 2019 8:43 pm

box wrote:
Exciting times. Any idea what the install, setup and tune is going to set you back?

yeah looks like 1500 to 2k. I know what I expect and thats 2k. Depends how easy it goes... knowing my luck.... the Link cost me $1150. He asked if I wanted Radiator fan controlled by Link but cause I have removed the relays from the car I said no. I just switch the fan directly from Cabin.
 
BATOOH
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Re: GTO Link ECU upgrade.

Tue 02 Apr, 2019 8:30 am

Slow progress but at least there's progress. The Link's in and the car is running. It's sitting on the DYNO ready to be tuned but that's not happening till next week as there's just been an OSCA event this weekend just gone and  another one this coming weekend at Highlands. So next week is D Day. Thats Life in the fast lane I suppose!
 
BATOOH
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Re: Linked In! 374 hp atw at 18 psi.

Thu 11 Apr, 2019 9:55 am

Pick her up tomorrow. Cost $800 incl GST to install Link and adapt wiring loom and board etc, and dyno tune for 6 hours. Not bad eh! I had 3.5k budgeted for this event and all up it cost me 2k. So very happy with that.

So the Elephant in the room is the HP figure. If I have a good sense of HP I would have said I had 360-370 HP prior to the Link. It ran an 11.9 second quarter (remember the car is sub 1400kg) a few years ago and I reckon it has got more powerful since that. Tap tap tap... I can hear Magnit saying you wasted 2k on nil HP increase!!! Yeah I did but I'm happy as this is the start of the end for me..

He said  at 21psi it made like 2 hp more. At 12/13/14 PSI it had nice flat power line, no fluctuations. at 18 psi it comes on waves- up and down. Exactly what it was doing pre Link. I can't stress the "EXACTLY" enough.

Some years ago I was fiddling with vac/boost lines and I made a mistake by unwittingly installing a one way valved boost tee on the wastegate line. so the gates wouldn't open. I didn't race the car like that but when testing it it was like I had 500HP and I had to regulate boost with my right foot! It gave me a snapshot of what I wanted the car to be like. It was awesome!.

We discussed reasons for the lower HP figure. Gates/actuators and EBC are the suspects. I said I had tested the actuators with 3 turns of preload and used a compressor to make sure they were working in situ in tandem and they were. So the EBC came under scrutiny, A greddy profec B spec, which he rates highly and he had a fiddle with. I have also fiddled with that bloody thing and I can't work it out TBH. So that's likely the culprit. I have suspected that for a long time - as one of the instructions in the EBC operating manual is countermanded by another statement in that manual. there is something wrong with the setup in this EBC, This will be the subject of another post in the very near future when I get time to sit down and reacquaint myself with this issue. I can see BOX trying to figure this one out!

So thats why I'm happy. I'm not far from twiddling the dials to find the sweet spot. Of Course I will be making exact notes of exactly what I'm doing to this setup now that I'm tuned.

On that note stay tuned, Dyno sheet up in the weekend. I hope.
 
magn1t
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Re: GTO Track Project-Here we go.

Thu 11 Apr, 2019 4:05 pm

Did your "tooner" change the knock sensor?

No of course not. Not that that will make the knock control work anyway.

So now you've got no knock control....that's how you get a slight increase of power until the day it blows up.




A bit like "Stevie Wonder".........I may be blind but at least i'm not black.....a link is no different.
It can't hear knock therefore it's not knocking.
Like here......the blind leading the blind.

http://forums.linkecu.com/topic/5441-kn ... -in-evo-6/
.
Last edited by magn1t on Thu 11 Apr, 2019 4:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
quote from barryboys.
Yes, yes, yes, that might be so, but you're clearly missing the bigger picture.....
4 intercoolers!!!!!!!!
Beat that!!!!
 
magn1t
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Re: Linked In! 374 hp atw at 18 psi.

Thu 11 Apr, 2019 4:15 pm

BATOOH wrote:



We discussed reasons for the lower HP figure. Gates/actuators and EBC are the suspects. I said I had tested the actuators with 3 turns of preload and used a compressor to make sure they were working in situ in tandem and they were. reacquaint myself with this issue. I can see BOX trying to figure this one out!



.

The only way to set the WG preload is with an air compressor and a gauge. It's not with any number of turns.
More preload is better than less, it stops them blowing open with excess exhaust pressure and also eliminates any boost spiking the you get with a boost controller.........when it's done right.
Once you've done that you'll know the exact pressure at which each one will start to open.....That's the boost pressure it'll run without a boost controller. Should do about 9 or 10 PSI, up from the stock figure of about 5 PSI.
quote from barryboys.
Yes, yes, yes, that might be so, but you're clearly missing the bigger picture.....
4 intercoolers!!!!!!!!
Beat that!!!!
 
BATOOH
Topic Author
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Re: GTO Track Project-Here we go.

Thu 11 Apr, 2019 4:45 pm

magn1t wrote:
Did your "tooner" change the knock sensor?

No of course not. Not that that will make the knock control work anyway.

So now you've got no knock control....that's how you get a slight increase of power until the day it blows up.




A bit like "Stevie Wonder".........I may be blind but at least i'm not black.....a link is no different.
It can't hear knock therefore it's not knocking.
Like here......the blind leading the blind.

http://forums.linkecu.com/topic/5441-kn ... -in-evo-6/
.

You're probably right Steve, technically speaking. I will ask him tomorrow about knock deletion. Anyway I'm relaxed about it as I have had a bloody good run out of this engine and it's been bought back from near death before, the guy I bought it off had killed it. I'm hoping that an experienced tuner can keep me out of Knockzone and I am hopefully right when I factor in reducing overall car weight meaning less load on the engine. It's running 100RON now and , well, My longer term plan is to go 4 bolt with Pistons and Rods and get me up some real HP. One of my competitors is running 700 awhp. He was 4.9 seconds quicker than me last year over a 2 and a half minute course... I reckon and I think I'm very realistic, that with 500awhp I will eat him. It's all in the driver. This year will be a true test of my ability as I have learned some new driving skills.
 
BATOOH
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Re: Linked In! 374 hp atw at 18 psi.

Thu 11 Apr, 2019 4:50 pm

magn1t wrote:
The only way to set the WG preload is with an air compressor and a gauge. 

I have the air compressor and a tyre inflation/gauge attachment but I don't have a presettable constant pressure attachment that allows me to dial up say 10psi. What do you recommend? Make one or buy one? I haven't got a mig Tig, just an arc, and have no brazing kit. I can solder anything though as I have plenty of gas and some great electric irons and some even better Bolts courtesy of my old man! I really need to do this, I can't put it off.
 
magn1t
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Re: GTO Track Project-Here we go.

Thu 11 Apr, 2019 6:48 pm

I use an air duster attachment with added hose and gauge.

Same as this.

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_iV6PIEeOg

Give it more air initially to open the WG, the leaks in the system will allow it to close slowly, take note of the approx pressure as the flapper re seats it's self,(you'll feel it with your fingers) repeat, repeat and repeat to get consistent numbers. Best done with turbos OFF the car, the front one is easy, the back one is just about impossible with it on the engine.....any "proper" tuner will know all this??
Like you don't want to dyno it with a boost controller until you've already dynoed it without....it eliminates any unknown variables....like the boost controller............which means it was only half arsed tuned and needs doing again only properly.......or like I do on the road 'cos it works best.

Engines don't blow up because they're not strong enough, they blow up because they're tuned badly.
Using that logic, getting forged pistons and aftermarket rods will do nothing for power, it'll only lighten your wallet.

However it's really good for the industry as a whole, it keeps engine reconditioners , parts swappers and wannabe tooners employed.


As far as the knock sensor goes, I've mentioned this several times before, 99% of people who work in the industry have no idea whatsoever, it's a resonant sensor, outputs one and only one frequency which is roughly 11.8 K Hz. If you feed that through a bandpass filter set to say 5K Hz to 8 Khz ...nothing will ever come out of the other side........no your tooner doesn't know either and no he didn't change it.....plus the theory he thinks is correct is infact incorrect.
How do I know he didn't change it?  
 It won't fit. The one you need to try to work with a link has a smaller diameter screw thread (it's got a hole in the middle for a bolt) meaning it won't screw into the bracket. You could change the bracket of course.......they come on the 380, 6G75. Try changing the mounting bracket with the heads on?
No don't bother....too hard.....so there you go.
A half arsed installation job is worse then no installation job just like wrong data is worse than no data at all.
quote from barryboys.
Yes, yes, yes, that might be so, but you're clearly missing the bigger picture.....
4 intercoolers!!!!!!!!
Beat that!!!!
 
BATOOH
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Re: GTO Track Project-Here we go.

Sat 13 Apr, 2019 7:20 am

magn1t wrote:
I use an air duster attachment with added hose and gauge.

Same as this.

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_iV6PIEeOg

Give it more air initially to open the WG, the leaks in the system will allow it to close slowly, take note of the approx pressure as the flapper re seats it's self,(you'll feel it with your fingers) repeat, repeat and repeat to get consistent numbers. Best done with turbos OFF the car, the front one is easy, the back one is just about impossible with it on the engine.....any "proper" tuner will know all this??
Like you don't want to dyno it with a boost controller until you've already dynoed it without....it eliminates any unknown variables....like the boost controller............which means it was only half arsed tuned and needs doing again only properly.......or like I do on the road 'cos it works best.

Engines don't blow up because they're not strong enough, they blow up because they're tuned badly.
Using that logic, getting forged pistons and aftermarket rods will do nothing for power, it'll only lighten your wallet.

However it's really good for the industry as a whole, it keeps engine reconditioners , parts swappers and wannabe tooners employed.


As far as the knock sensor goes, I've mentioned this several times before, 99% of people who work in the industry have no idea whatsoever, it's a resonant sensor, outputs one and only one frequency which is roughly 11.8 K Hz. If you feed that through a bandpass filter set to say 5K Hz to 8 Khz ...nothing will ever come out of the other side........no your tooner doesn't know either and no he didn't change it.....plus the theory he thinks is correct is infact incorrect.
How do I know he didn't change it?  
 It won't fit. The one you need to try to work with a link has a smaller diameter screw thread (it's got a hole in the middle for a bolt) meaning it won't screw into the bracket. You could change the bracket of course.......they come on the 380, 6G75. Try changing the mounting bracket with the heads on?
No don't bother....too hard.....so there you go.
A half arsed installation job is worse then no installation job just like wrong data is worse than no data at all.

Steve, Any tuner is only going to do their best with what they are given. They are not going to disassemble and reassemble all parts so they know whats right and wrong. I elected not to do a current DYNO before installing the Link because I don't care. I'm going forward.
I questioned him on the Knock sensor. He says when you tune you tune with a margin of safety thereby negating the need for a knock sensor. He says he can put one in but it adds nothing in my case. I can relate to this way of thinking. Obviously you can't. I don't mind being called half arsed mate, cause some of it is a little NOOB. But I'm getting there and I can make better decisions about what suits my cause. Alot of what you say is good but alot of it is just plain opinionated. I don't want you to change. Cause I f**king well aren't!
 
BATOOH
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Re: DYNO chart and first impressions

Sat 13 Apr, 2019 7:38 am

MMM well that PDF doesn't like being attached to this post as usual..might have to get Lyall to do that.

Anyway first impressions, with the LINK ecu
1.Oh f*** another computer app that you have to learn how to use.... I can't see me changing my fuel mapping!
2.Yay the rev counter, speedo, fuel gauge and CEL light still operate!!
3.Reluctantly I took it for a spin at his insistence. Apart from the discomfort of dust covered windscreen and no belts/Lid I would have said it was about as powerful as before the Link! I did notice one gauge though. It maxed at 15 psi. He said when I got back what pressure did you see.. Hmm, so we checked the EBC and sure enough it was set to Low Boost. OK.. whats High Boost like!!
4. It's going to be a pleasure getting rid of the MAF and the Recirc BOV plumbing and all those f**king wires in the cabin that have been exposed as excess!
5. I have a spare ECU if anyones interested.
 
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Chronos_c4
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Re: GTO Track Project-Here we go.

Sat 13 Apr, 2019 10:23 am

uploaded as an image file
forum doesnt know what to do with PDF files
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Image
Follow the progress: My rides thread HERE
 
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box
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Re: GTO Track Project-Here we go.

Sat 13 Apr, 2019 2:03 pm

If you're interested, I've got a Bosch 2 pin knock sensor and an adapter to fit into the original knock sensor mounting position. I can also send through a copy of my map which will have the knock sensor settings in it that seem to work me me. 

I'd be selling the Greddy and just running boost control through the Link.

Also the dyno jpeg won't load for me. 

Also, where are you getting 100RON?
Image
 
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Chronos_c4
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Re: GTO Track Project-Here we go.

Sat 13 Apr, 2019 6:25 pm

Image
Image
Follow the progress: My rides thread HERE
 
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box
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Re: GTO Track Project-Here we go.

Sat 13 Apr, 2019 6:55 pm

Thanks mate  [like]
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BATOOH
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Re: GTO Track Project-Here we go.

Sat 13 Apr, 2019 7:12 pm

box wrote:
If you're interested, I've got a Bosch 2 pin knock sensor and an adapter to fit into the original knock sensor mounting position. I can also send through a copy of my map which will have the knock sensor settings in it that seem to work me me. 

I'd be selling the Greddy and just running boost control through the Link.

Also the dyno jpeg won't load for me. 

Also, where are you getting 100RON?

May repatriate the Greddy to my road car so I can sell it in a reasonable state of tune. It was always a good goer that car. 
I think Lyall said it was an image file so may need something other than photo viewer/JPEG device to see it.
There's this company called NPD from Nelson I think and they have had a self serve bowser for many years here in CHCH. They have started expanding hugely and have opened 5-6 new manned and slef serves here in CHCH (and other SI centres) and a new variety of fuel is 100RON. I'm happy to pay them for it as I hate BP, the cxxxx.
 
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box
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Re: GTO Track Project-Here we go.

Sat 13 Apr, 2019 8:33 pm

Is there any chance you could email me a copy of the tune file? I always like to compare notes. 

What does that stuff cost per litre? 
Image
 
BATOOH
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Re: GTO Track Project-Here we go.

Sun 14 Apr, 2019 8:40 am

box wrote:
Is there any chance you could email me a copy of the tune file? I always like to compare notes. 

What does that stuff cost per litre? 

Yeah mate I don't mind emailing that but I'm ultra busy at the moment with water pump controller failures, dropping mum to airport and preparing for tradesmen next week etc etc. And I'm no Computer buff so you will have to help me there but I did download the Link support thing on a laptop and the thing downloaded but the shortcut item on the homepage doesn't work it gives an error msg. However I could go into "file manager" and get to the Link tool that way.
Anyway got a few hours yesterday to look at the car and was peeling back the BOV recirc and bugger me the BOV is shagged. The old HKS lost the main seating valve- it was all off skew and there was a 8mm gap in the side of the main seat so it was not working. anyway I removed it and it has a stupid little plasicated 4 pronged clip affair. Late last night after looking at the cost of new BOV's I decided to try and repair the old one so out with the RTV and reclipped it but with some red silicon. Will run and test later today. So this is an annoying development.
NPD 100RON. I filled up 30L I guess a month ago and I think then it was 2.230 per litre, But I could be wrong. Gas has been rising steadily over the last few months. He used 15+ litres Dynoing the thing.
 
magn1t
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Re: GTO Track Project-Here we go.

Sun 14 Apr, 2019 11:32 am

Well at least you know how to test a BOV in water now, there must have been a reason I put up that vid?

Throw it away, you won't fix it, they're crap.


Modified factory ones are unbeatable.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9JRbr1Cfuc


As for your dyno sheets, well with a 12 PSI tune and TDO4s the torque should have pretty much flattened off when you hit 12 PSI which would have been 2500 to 3000 ish RPM....it's low but keeps on climbing. ...it's shows that you've got a boost leak.....it's got to be the shittiest amateurish dyno sheet I've seen in years....you'll have to go back and get it done again only properly this time.
Same goes with the 16 pound tune, the torque should flatten when the boost hits 16 pounds, it'll then drop off a bit by 6000RPM

I see it's done in 4th gear too?
I would have expected it to be done in 3rd for less drivetrain loss which is pretty much normal for GTOs.
The squiggly lines for both power and torque in the upper RPMs, that's usually caused by wheelspin on the rollers, in turn because it wasn't strapped down hard enough or too much tyre pressure for the rollers or both....that's 'cos the dyno calculates engine RPM from roller speed via the input of a number for gear ratio.



Who's the tuner? A proper tuner should have fixed that. ...a data fiddler can't.
OK you don't want to say.
I can understand....lol


Just saying.
There's no way I would ever be happy with that.
At 16 PSI you should be seeing about 420 horses, 100RON and 3rd gear.

Quote Batooh
 "Alot of what you say is good but alot of it is just plain opinionated. I don't want you to change".

You mean I actually KNOW what I'm talking about?....everyone else just makes it all up?


All my opinions are backed up with over 40 years experience, qualifications and lots of measurements........when's the last time I made an incorrect statement on here?
Like I told you your speedo and tach will still work because they're NOT affected by the ECU....the ECU pins for these functions are inputs not outputs.....you still seem surprised?
But you factory boost gauge probably won't work anymore but there's no reason why it can't be made to work....with input from someone who knows what they're doing.
quote from barryboys.
Yes, yes, yes, that might be so, but you're clearly missing the bigger picture.....
4 intercoolers!!!!!!!!
Beat that!!!!
 
BATOOH
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Re: GTO Track Project-Here we go.

Tue 16 Apr, 2019 11:13 am

OK Steve, I will reply with brief points re your comments, which are good for me to analyse.

Your videos on uTube are vague, weird, and to an analytical person like me, useless to me.
3rd or 4th gear doesn't bother me. Traditionally 4th gear I would have said but I will take your advice under consideration for the future.
The Tuner is Neville Stowell who has Linktec Timaru. He holds the sports saloon lap record at Ruapuna, has won a sh** load of other races and continues to do so, has a dyno room on his property and builds more engines (including race engines) than you do. He has even installed a LINK on the V12 Jag. His wife has even beat my PB around the street sprint circuit in Ashburton. The pity of your assertions are that Neville is the nicest guy in the world, has sh** loads of experience and is doing the racing thing big time. If you were to meet him you would just be in your element.
The Dyno reasons Neville gave me are that the Dyno is very sensitive to tyres on the rollers and that at higher HP the graphs tend to smooth out.
I don't care that my car never reached 420hp, and that it has a boost leak. I am not going to throw the HKS BOV away until I have tested it with my fix. Yes I have got alot of work to do but I won't be following most of your advice above.
I had forgotten you had told me speedo and Tach would keep working post Link install... I was just so surprised and happy that they did!!! Between the lines it was just another case of forgetting some of the things you tell me..
Why would I want the factory boost gauge in my race car. It's sh**. Maybe you are showing your inexperience here. I will post a pic to this so you can see whats going on.
Have you worked it out yet, I don't always listen to everything you say. And maybe there are others out there, that know more than you...

I hope you keep helping me though as my skin is quite thick. unfortunately alot of others over the years haven't been so Thick!! LOL.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
 
magn1t
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Re: GTO Track Project-Here we go.

Tue 16 Apr, 2019 6:26 pm

Yes all of my videos on youtube ARE vague, they're done in a special way so that only those with a few clues and experience can work it all out.....they're there to make you think, they're not there for those who can't.
BUT they're all 100% factual and 100% correct.
Afterall my videos got me a job at Dieselgas......NZs no 1 R and D dyno facility (offshoot of the old DSIR)...official job title "dyno engineer" working with the most experienced people in NZ when it comes to alternative fuels and dyno test cells......the modern day CV is the youtube channel.......but that was a couple of years back.

As for the factory boost gauge being junk and inaccurate....it's NOT.
Again all you've done is read an american forum and taken their word for it......which again is incorrect.
The US spec cars have numbers on the boost gauge, ours don't.
They can't be inaccurate with no numbers.
How do they work?
The computer drives it from airflow input and RPM input.
As soon as you change the injectors for bigger ones it automatically changes the scaling according to the correction you give the computer via AFC or similar.
It doesn't mean it's inaccurate, it just means it's rescaled.
It's actually a really good diagnostic tool because if you blow a hose off with boost, the gauge will peg out max.
If your ECU has died due to the usual causes, the boost gauge often won't work because it relies on the 5v supply.
Then once you know how it's supposed to work, it's easy to get running with the aftermarket computer.....even though it'snow SD with no AFM..........you're NOT going to get it working if you've got no idea?


No I'm not expecting you to take any notice of my comments, they're there for the benefit of others who might want to learn something, like in "fixers" build thread.


Your dyno sheet is still crap though, still needs doing again only properly.
Saying that the rollers are "sensitive to tyres".....that's just a big cop out because when the wheels are spinning the whole thing is worthless...as in GIGO. It's got to be strapped down tighter so it won't spin.........afterall that's what makes hub dynos better and engine dynos even better still.

Most people who put a car an a dyno, it's a complete fail the first couple of times due to issues not found and not known about before dyno time.
That's yet another really good reason to do as much as you can on the road first, a dyno is only for getting numbers to impress your ricer friends. With modern technology common these days they're pretty much redundant.
On the road you can sort out the cold start, the hot start, the idle, the low load areas, then the low boost and finally the high boost and costs nothing.....so long as you've got a safe deserted bit of road.

 
quote from barryboys.
Yes, yes, yes, that might be so, but you're clearly missing the bigger picture.....
4 intercoolers!!!!!!!!
Beat that!!!!
 
BATOOH
Topic Author
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Re: GTO Track Project-Here we go.

Tue 16 Apr, 2019 8:31 pm

Thanks. Ok there are alot of people out there reading this and it must be quite entertaining. However This response is not written to be "Entertaining". It is my personal response!

1. Ok your'e a geek Dyno King. No Issue. Your YouTube efforts leave me pondering suicide.
2. Factory boost gauges rely upon Factory ECU's. No good to me. The factory boost gauge to me was just a wildly sweeping needle without any calibration markings and I wasn't even reading the American forums to see that. What makes you think I was reading their forums getting this opinion? Your hobby horse as usual. As for ideas of getting it working on my LINK ecu.... f*** that.
3.I actually pitied Fixxer. I read the whole of his build thread. My inexact calculations come out to "at least" $30,000 nzd and he still had a f***ed engine then he went off radar forever...
4. Yes I agree with you..."My Dyno Sheet is Crap". Only one way from here though...
5. I no longer have a safe, deserted bit of Road. It's a bit like my Capital Valuation which reflects I must be somewhere very good because it's too much. I got concerned when a Policeman was sitting in his car just on the South West Corner of my boundary as they knew it was a week before the Ashburton Street Sprints which is my main annual event/litmus test. I can not, repeat, can not, risk my drivers licence/or Big fine for road tuning my race car. 

This a Race Car build thread Steve. I'm no kid I'm turning 60 this Year! Try and add value with your comments that may mean you get more value back. Honestly I Still value your feedback.
 
magn1t
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Re: GTO Track Project-Here we go.

Fri 19 Apr, 2019 11:07 pm

BATOOH wrote:
5. I no longer have a safe, deserted bit of Road. 

If you've got a 5 speed, 2nd gear is the only gear you ever need, it'll get you from walking speed to 120 ish Ks which is OK for open road speed limits without getting too silly..........it's just a case of knowing HOW to do it.
There's no need to ever go into 3rd or 4th or even 5th

My own piece of "safe road"..it used to be open road speed limit, it's now been dropped to 80Ks and the 50K sign has been moved to shorten the space available...........so no longer ideal.
The other road I've been using for about 40 years..........the wainui hill, there's now a bridge at the top to signify a finish line with a speed camera alongside so can't use that anymore either. Can't beat hills for tuning.
My first ever race over the wainui hill , can still remember, I'd just got my license so would have been 1976, was in mum and dads mk 2 Cortina wagon 1300cc with 2 mates in the car, was racing another mate in a HA viva with 2 onboard, we both got a run at it, from wainui side.......40 mph, 35, 30, slower and slower, I lost......everything is faster these days.....they didn't have a speed limit then , no point, nobody would ever break it.
quote from barryboys.
Yes, yes, yes, that might be so, but you're clearly missing the bigger picture.....
4 intercoolers!!!!!!!!
Beat that!!!!

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